Tuesday, December 16, 2008

WHY BE AN ATHEIST

In the end, you will see why its mathematically stupid to be an atheist.

Step one: You cannot prove G-d doesn't exist. If you try to question why G-d did something, or why he created something. You can always say "G-d put it there as a test to see if you believe". Therefore you can not prove G-d does not exist. Also G-d is not physical so you cant prove that he doesn't exist with something physical. This also works the other way making it fifty fifty. So there is 50% chance that if you are an atheist you are wrong.

Step two: We all know that G-d spoke to the Jews at mount Sinai. All other religions they had one guy who heard G-d. No religion disputes that G-d spoke to the Jews. There were about 3,000,000 people at Mount Sinai when G-d spoke to them. So the only way for for you to prove that this didn't happen is for you to say that A) it was big hoax. Which is highly unlikely for 3,000,000 people with the rest of the world agreeing, to make a big hoax. B) It was Aliens making the big show at mount Sinai. Aliens were never proven to exist. Or C) time travelers went back and with loud speakers and special effects to make the big hoax. Going back in time was never a theory, it was only to go into the future, and time traveling never happened cant prove it exists. This brings us, with some kindness on the atheists part, to about 85% that G-d exists, and 15% G-d doesn't.

Step three: All the Miracles G-d did for the Jews are believed by all. Once again, the only way to disprove this is with the three answers before, which are highly unlikely. Pushing this, once again with kindness on the atheists part, to 92% G-d exists and 8% G-d doesn't. Now going with 8% is a big risk to take. You are going to burn for this, according to all religions. Does it make sense to go with an 8% chance you are wrong? obviously not.

This was invented by a 16Th century mathematician if I am not mistaken.

39 people gave their 2 cents:

BrooklynWolf said...

This sounds much like a modified version of Pascal's Wager. Pascal's wager, of course, is complete bunk.

That aside, there are a few problems with your reasoning. For starters, you state that "no religion disputes that God spoke to the Jews." Well, there are about 900 million Hindus, 375 million Buddhists, and about 400 million tribal and African traditional religionists who would dispute that fact.

In addition, there are other possibilities to the events on Mt. Sinai. Yes, an actual Divine Revelation is possible (and, in fact, it's what I believe happened). But, it's also possible that it could have been a mass delusion, or an event that took place on a much more minor scale and was later "blown up" as the legend grew, or even invented entirely afterwards.

Thirdly, I'm curious how you attached a "35%" value to this portion of your "proof."

Lastly, you state that the miracles that God did for the Jews are "believed by all." I, again, refer you to the approximately 1.5 billion mentioned above. And, again, I wonder at how you arrived at the percentage for this.

In short, this isn't going to convince anyone who can think critically to believe in God.

The Wolf

Jack said...

The Wolf is right. This is riddled with holes. Saying that you can't prove that G-d does not exist has the same problems as saying that you can't prove that G-d doesn't exist.

typewriter said...

>Step one

To paraphrase Bertrand Russell, you could say that by this logic, there is also a 50% chance that a magical teapot is floating somewhere in space...

Moshe said...

I do hope this was posted as a joke...

Mikeinmidwood said...

Brooklyn Wolf

Yes theyre are some mistakes. the person who told this to me messed up a little. After seeing it on paper today, it made more sense.

Jack

you might want to write that again, because "can't prove that G-d does not exist" and "can't prove that G-d doesn't exist." is the same thing.

Type writer

Prove it isnt.

Moshe

give up that hope.

Moshe said...

Step one supposes there's G-d. Lack of physical presence is a proof of none existence.

Step two, only Christianity and Islam accept this. Going back in time is a theory. Time is an axis, just as the 3 axis of space. Going back in time is actually more plausible than going forward because you're going forward into a possible future, not a definite one. How does what you said add up to 35%?

Step three, again, only Christianity and Islam. Again, why is it 7% now.

The first idea is the most ridiculous. Absence of physical existence is in itself proof of none-existence. In fact, scientific evidence used in proving the existence of G-d currently used is that of his influence on the universe. Lacking that, there is no proof of existence and no, you can't turn that around and say 50/50. The precedence is that if something's not there, has not been observed by others and does not show any concrete influence, it doesn't exist.

I can use your proofs to claim you have an invisible cup on your table. And that would be more realistic because cups exist and have been observed by people.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

Okay the mistakes were. It went up to 75%, since there is no proof against it actually happening. Then it went up to 92% since there is no proof that all the miracles g-d did didnt happen, which only furthers the chances G-d exists. Islam, christianity, and judaism, are the biggest percentage of people that agree on one fact, that g-d spoke to the jews on mount sinai, that enhances the chances its true.

as for that cup. No one has ever seen an invisible cup, for various reasons, one being that its invisible. Second thing is, go get at least 100 people to pull off this hoax.

Moshe said...

You said 85. And 85+12 or 75+12 does not equal 92. All those numbers are out of thin air with nothing behind them.

Judaism is not one of the major religions. Christianity and Islam became major religions because of missionaries and forced conversions so proves nothing. Anyway, Christianity and Islam are only 53% of the world and while it's a comparatively big number, your claim would need it to be much, much greater.

Actually, taking into account that only 50% of the world believes G-d spoke to Jews, your end result is not 92% but less than 80% if even 70%.

I can claim that 1000 people claim they have invisible cups on their tables. Disprove it.

Moshe said...

btw, those 47% religions are older than both Christianity and Islam which gives them even more weight.

Also, most original religions claim existence of multiple gods and so do a lot of current religions. According to your math, that would prove that there are in fact multiple gods and not one.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

1) where does the number 12 come in?
2) I was proving that, there is proof to G-d speaking at mount sinai. Since there is no way you could say its a big hoax, it could only push the numbers up.
3)I was trying to show that by being an atheist you are 92% chance of being wrong. This means that no matter what religion you believe in, its better than being an atheist.
4) (I forgot to put this in) If you are an atheist than you are saying that after you die there is nothing left for you, and while you are living there is no purpose for your life. If you believe in any sort of religion you have at least one of those two.

Moshe said...

Where do your numbers come from?

There is no proof. At most, only 53% of the world believe that. Both are fairly new and Christianity originated from Judaism and that's a good reason to not count them at all.

Again, where does 92 come from.

Not necessarily. Again, you're equating all religions to Christianity and Islam.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

First, I am not equating it all back to Islam and Christianity . Its just a big proof. You could take all the religions out there and put it to this. It only enhances the chances that G-d exists. I just picked this one case being that its widely believed.
Second, A mathematician made this up not me. I dont think he was from the 16th century, probably clodser to our time.

Dina said...

He was from the 17th century. And - really? Have you read what he wrote? And he's not proving that G-d exists - he's proving that Christianity is true. Btw, many Christians, including C.S. Lewis, use the truth/hoax/insanity argument to prove that Jesus was divine. Do you accept that too?

I don't think you can be religious without, at some point, making a leap of faith and just saying "this is what I believe." It is a big mistake to think you can scientifically prove 1)G-d exists 2)He cares what we do.

Moshe said...

The numbers are random and just add up to something big. There's no reason or meaning.

It's not much of a proof because you can equate Judaism to Christianity since they both use the same book so now it's only 2 religions that believe that and there are A LOT of religions in the world.

The only plausible proofs are ones used by scientists now. Philosophy, and that's what it is, it's not math, can't be used to prove anything.
You want a decent proof, Big Bang shows an outside factor controlling the reaction and keeping matter from either collapsing unto itself or floating away.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Dina

Well the point of the post, is to prove its stupid to be an atheist. The rest can all go in th trash.

Moshe

I dont know exactly how he did it, and how the numbers work out.

Moshe said...

Exactly, it's just a bunch of random numbers chosen to prove a point.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

No, theyre is a reason. How about googling it.

Moshe said...

If this is Pascal's Wager, there's no numbers in it. They were prob stuck in later for show.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

From this stemmed the probability theory. Look in wiki.

Moshe said...

Link? Don't see anything about any 92%.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Neither did I. I have heard it was made up by another Mathemtician, who gave numbers, His name was something like Goths or Gos.

Moshe said...

You actually believe all those stories rabbis tell?!

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

No rabbis told me this. I heard it from some supposed smart guy.

Dina said...

1. Maybe it's time to backtrack and give us some definitions - what exactly do you mean when you say G-d?
2. as several have remarked mathematics don't work here. Gosse? Really, Gosse, who believed G-d created an earth complete with pre-aged dinosaur bones? (Note that the above cannot be either proved or disproved by science or logic.)
Pascal did do work on probability theory; the Wager, however, is part of his theology, which was not all that sound.
3. Large numbers of people believing something does not make it so (cf. flat earth).

4. Intelligent people are never atheists? Really? They may be wrong, but they are not all stupid or liars, which is what this argument states. That is demonstrably untrue.

Yes,religion does require a leap of faith at some point - something I do not have a problem with. It is a great mistake to think that everything on heaven and earth can be proved scientifically. This kind of argument degrades both religion and science.

Leisha Camden said...

LOL! Thanks for a good laugh! :-D

No intelligent people are atheists - LOL! - I'm not going to go into that. Except to say that you ought to do a bit more reading, Mike.

There's especially one thing you might want to look up: the difference between 'proof' and 'evidence'.

scargosun said...

This made no sense whatsoever. You are basically taking your beliefs and skewing the reasoning to fit that belief. Not everyone believes in the miracles you mentioned and not everyone believes that God spoke on the Mount. Proving a theory doesn't work that way.

Please Stop said...

Oy, this is an embarrassing post. Maybe even a chillul Hashem.

BrooklynWolf said...

Maybe even a chillul Hashem.

Oh, please! Yes, it's poorly thought out and filled with bad reasoning, but it's not a chillul HaShem. Cut out the hysterionics.

The Wolf

Mikeinmidwood said...

To all those bombarding me with questions

I expected this to happen.

Dina

You seem to have it best.

Leish Camden

I should have checked up on this before posting.

Scargosun

please read the comments. I know they are long.

Please Stop

Please stop. You are really making a fool out of yourself.

Wolf

Right on.

Leisha Camden said...

If you expected people to 'bombard you with questions', why weren't you prepared with answers that actually make some sense and aren't just regurgitations of the same illogicalities that the post is made up of ... ?

Oh, that's right - because anyone who questions your flaw-riddled allegations is automatically wrong. LOL. Why do I bother. :-D

Mikeinmidwood said...

Leisha Camden

I wrote this knowing I would be bombarded with questions, since I would like to see how people view this. I do not hold of any which way. If you argue one way I will argue the other. Thats why I wrote it. But you could think any way you want, of course what was I thinking you wouldnt think any other way. :P

Leisha Camden said...

I do not hold of any which
way.


LOL! You don't seriously think that anyone will buy that one, do you? :-D

Mikeinmidwood said...

You seem to stubborn to admit, that you were wrong for accusing someone.

Leisha Camden said...

You're funny without even trying to be. :-D

Mikeinmidwood said...

So are you going to comment on this one post, or are you going to keep following.

Leisha Camden said...

Nah, I've commented all I'm going to. A number of people have tried to talk sense into you; unsurprisingly, it's had no effect. There's little anyone can contribute to this 'discussion', really, since you obviously - despite what you claim - have already made up your mind on this issue. If you can reread your original post without seeing that, then seriously, good luck.

This is all just so silly that I couldn't resist poking a little fun. I'm really sorry that I've been distracting you from all the other interested commenters who have been so eager to share their thoughts with you here over the last couple of days!!

Unsubscribing now. kthxbye.

Mikeinmidwood said...

You base what I think on what was written in the post. You do know there are comments for a reason, how about reading them. Second I really wrote this to see how people think. Your just to stubborn to admit anything.

The Babysitter said...

ahh now I see what you mean...too much for me to read now.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Babysitter

I aint blaming you.