Wednesday, May 6, 2009

FRUM APIKORSIM

Another short post ;)

It just so happens to be that a real machmir rabbi, who is lubavitch, wrote in his new sefer, "Anyone who believes the Rebbe is mashiach is an apikoris (apikoris comes from the name Epicurus, who was a Greek philosopher who believed to do as the heart desires, which goes against the Jewish religions philosophy)". This poses a great problem for many lubbies, do they risk being called an apikoris, or do they give up the messianic crap. I assume that most of them will give it up easily, because who wants to be a Frum apikoris, its better to be an apikoris who gets all the benefits of this world, so they will stay Frum. Then there are the guys that call up the Jewish radio stations, and tell hosts like Zev Brenner, that 770 is the new beis hamikdash, they wont give up so easily.

What I really like about this is that, it came right in time for lag Ba'omer, when all the Lubavs who promote the messianic claims are out recruiting. Now instead of just telling them they're crazy, I can tell them they're apikorsim. Thank you Rabbi, being machmir cant always hurt.

In what ways will this new ruling help you? Help you shut up lubby messianic missionaries? or steal aliyos from them because apikorsim aren't allowed to have one? or even maybe allow yourself to finally detach from this way of life. What ever it may be, tell.

20 people gave their 2 cents:

Altie said...

I'm a lubavitcher, and my beliefs are mine alone. No one will convince me to think otherwise. As you can see, I have not stated what my belifs are, cuz I do not wih to get into an arguement.
What is the name of this sefer, may I ask?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It doesnt matter WHO is moshiach, and fighting and arguing about it will only prevent him from coming now. The main thing is to have ahavat yisroel, and not fight with your fellow jew, and do as much as you can to help speed up his coming.
And hearing what you have to say has made no impact on me- but it is kind of sad how much people can just sit and talk, and not get up and DO.

Proud MO said...

I was at a wedding in Brooklyn recently, and some schnorrer is going around with a yechi pin (you know those yellow ones) on his lapel. I heard a guy tell him, "I don't give to the Catholic church, so I won't give to you."
Nice!

Altie, you're wrong. Arguing against those who are perverting Judaism will help Mashiach come. One reason the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed was because of avodah zarah. The Lubavitcher Rebbe has been turned into an avodah zarah by many of these people, and having Jews believe in it will prevent Mashiach from coming.
Ahavat Yisrael doesn't mean letting your friend do what he wants. When you love someone, you try to help them see their mistakes, not let them go unnoticed. When you let big things slide, it's a sign you don't care about the person.

Altie said...

"When you love someone, you try to help them see their mistakes, not let them go unnoticed."
Do you realize what you are saying? That was the epitome of Rabbi akivas students argument. They felt like they were doing their friend a 'favor' by pushing their beliefs on him, cuz they were right, and the friend was obviously wrong. As we know, g-d didnt consider it love, and they were killed.
Whether or not people believing in the Rebbe is considered avoda zara, which is debatable either way, it is no ones place to set them right. I agree that some people take it to an extreme, but in no way is it considered avoda zara.
I still stick with my original opinion- it is only preventing moshiach from coming.

Proud MO said...

Altie, I believe the reason R' Akiva's students were killed was because of their attitude in pushing their values on each other.
The Torah says "hocheach tocheach es amisecha". It just must be done properly.

Altie said...

Pushing their values on each other-seemingly out of love. There's the point.
Rebuke your brother- if he is doing something wrong according to Torah or halacha, and ONLY if its out of love, and if you make sure that you are ok in that area yourself. Only then may you rebuke him
Calling people apikorsim, and saying they are doing avoda zara, because they follow the Rebbe, and maybe are extreme about it, is an opinion. It does not say clearly in halacha that this behavior is avoda zara. And I'm sure the people who are doing it dont intend it that way. So no, I dont think it is right to 'correct' them. You accomplish nothing by it, just more strife.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Altie

No, the reason R' Akivas students were killed is because they didnt treat each other with respect, not because of giving bad rebuke. The rabbi who wrote this is in middle of writing a sefer on halachah, which means its not an opinion but rather a halachah.

Im very sorry if you believe him to be mashiach, but simple facts show he isnt, and if you are just playing devils advocate then you can see that its the wrong thing to believe hes mashiach.

Moshe said...

They're just gonna say that he's a fake Lubavitch and whatever he says is BS.

I've always wondered, if the Rebbe is alive, why go to his kever...

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

Hes alive, and hiding in it.

Altie said...

You guys are sick. If you don't 'believe' in the Rebbe, or 'care' for him. fine. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe. But DO NOT go making fun of it, as if you know what you are talking about. He is the Rebbe, a holy man, whether it is past present or future, for you, it makes no difference. You do not see lubavitchers throwing Rabbi Nachman on the floor (and if you do, then they are not representing the whole)
So DO NOT GO DRAGGING MY REBBE THROUGH THE MUD. It is not a joke, it is not funny, it is plain sick and immature, so drop it.

Moshe said...

I wouldn't make fun of him, it's his followers we're making fun of. He was a great man. Scientist, learner, leader.

His followers are the ones dragging him through the mud. I have heard the following, and each from more than one person: he said he's moshiach, he hinted he's moshiach, he's currently alive, he's god.

Yes, I have heard lubavitchers throwing every non-lubavitch rabbi on the floor.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Okay Missy, you jumped too far. There is no reason to say I hate your rebbe, he was a holy man. I happen to also be friends with a many lubavitchers, and I liked my experience at 770 one shabbos. My point is that I have nothing against Lubavitchers, and I think I made it quite clear that I just dont like the ones who claim he is moshiach and is still alive and was supposed to come back today (lag ba'omer). But you can think whatever you want.

Altie said...

"I've always wondered, if the Rebbe is alive, why go to his kever..."
"Hes alive, and hiding in it."
Whether or nt this is meant to be making fun of his followers, and not the Rebbe himself, you still don't have to drag him in to it.
Yes, I will believe what I want to, but that is not the point.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Altie

We will just agree to dissagree, is that fair enough.

Altie said...

I guess I have no choice, since it seems I am unable to convince you. Though maybe if I try hard enough I could make a lubavitcher of you one day.

Moshe said...

That would prob require a full frontal lobotomy.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Altie

Good luck, but there are those that tried,

Moshe

You make it seem as if I have a mental disorder.

Moshe said...

You do agree that if you had a full frontal you'd be more willing to become a lubab, right?

Altie said...

Moshe, if you are trying to insult lubavitch, as you always seem to do, dont bother, it wont work.

Mike, people have tried, but you've never met ME.

Mikeinmidwood said...

Moshe

Depends on how you reconnect me up. But there is a possibilitie.

Altie

Technically I havent met you yet.

Altie said...

YET being the key word here.