Wednesday, September 17, 2008

YESHIVA HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUTS

In recent years there has beena plague of kids just not wanting to go through with the secular studies. They have become Yeshiva High School drop outs. Why would they like to drop is beyond any logic (real logic). Maybe its a knew kollel ad "Learn secular studies and forget about going to kollel". Or it could be "If you learn Secular studies you'll be so far from frum that you'll forget about kollel". Whatever it is, these guys/kids are dropping like flies (there are so many!!).

Soon there is going to be another question on the shidduch resume "Did you take secular studies in high school?". These guys/kids must know in advance that its coming, so I guess they are ready for it when the question comes around. After they pass the shidduch scene they will be moved to the kollel scene or part 2. How could you think that the people who drop out of secular studies be forced to work? (shame on you). They will be directly transferred to only the "best" kollel around where they wont last a while (being that they have 14 kids).

I was wondering what would you do if you don't even have a high school diploma?, and Chas V'shalom you have to stop the kollel business since you aren't making enough money and your wife isn't either making enough from her speech therapist job. What would you do? You wont be hired by anyone. If you try you may get to be a waiter at most or be the first Jewish taxi cab driver. One person gave me an answer that they can become a rebbi in a school, as if a rebbi makes so much money.

Many people are against this act of dropping out. I know the Yekis are very much against it. Then there are those people who are for it and don't allow their kids to get a secular education. I think its going too far, if you really want you can move back to your shtetle in poland.

32 people gave their 2 cents:

frumskeptic said...

They can be cashiers too ya know.

Moshe said...

Well...they'd still need to be able to count correct change...

The Babysitter said...

Another education issue.

I always thought that it was the boys school's that were bad, that they didn't teach secular subjects. That they offered the kids to play basketball instead. But then I realized it has nothing to do with the school, it has to do with the boys individually.

Some guys are just lazy and take the easy way out and don't go to Englsih. But the school offers it! So their doing their part. It's just because of peer pressure or something, not everyone takes advantage of it. There's a mentality among some that all that counts is the Jewish subjects, so they think anything extra, like math science and the rest aren't needed.

My favorite view on all this is R' Shamshon Rifael Hirsh's "Torah Em Derech Eretz" that their both important.

They don't have to ask if the boys dropped out of secular studies in HS, since all that matters is what they did after HS, if their in kollel or Yeshiva then their learners. If they are in college their workers.

Enough with the money! Every single blogger has mentioned money, I wonder what's up with that. Unless I'm just being paranoid.

But really your not them, so there's no reason to worry about how they will support themselves. You don't have to agree with what they do. But at the same time, it can work for them. They get kollel checks which support them a bit. Their wives work, they may get help from their parents. They can always take the GED if they need it. There are Jewish colleges stuff that they can do if the need arises.

SO long as their healthy normal functioning people, doesn't matter if they are in kollel or working, they will be able to have enough money.

Even look at all the big shot investors, they lost millions, so people may work for the money and loose it. and people may not work, and just live on what they need and then not be afraid to loose something they never have Menuchas Hanefesh.

All that being said. I believe in secular education and people working.

mlevin said...

Babysitter – what you just said is wrong on so many different levels that I don’t even know where to start.

First you said “forget about the money” ok, let’s forget about it. Now, I want you to look around. What do you see? Well, you see a computer screen. Guess what someone had to make it. That someone is not in kollel. Someone had to deliver it to your home/neighborhood. That someone is not in Kollel. Then you see bunch of wires that connect this screen to the power outlet. Well, someone had to manufacture these wires. That someone is not in Kollel either. Then there is someone who is providing electricity to your home to power your screen. That individual is not in Kollel either.

So, ok, let’s forget about money and let’s discuss what these Kollel individuals are doing to contribute to our society as a whole. NOTHING. They take, take, take like leeches without giving anything back.

Then you said that it’s ok that they are HS drop outs, when they want to go to work they could take a GED. WRONG!!!! It is not easy to take GED for someone who doesn’t know anything. These guys are totally ignorant. In order to take GED they literally have to start from the beginning, (around 6th grade) and learn everything. Of course by that time they are married with many children so they cannot dedicate years to learning high school stuff. And even if they did manage to get their GED at 30, as a businessman whom would you rather hire a young energetic guy with a high school diploma or a 30 year old man with a GED?

And please don’t talk about big shot investment people. Even though they lost millions there is a lot more where that came from. They may forgo a new yacht and a new porche, but believe me they won’t starve. The secret to not starving is not kollel, it’s education. People with proper education may suffer a setback or two, but they could always pick themselves up.

Moshe said...

Sales people and the annoying people who call you on behalf of charity organizations.
Oh, and the number one profession that doesn't require any education or even the command of the English language, tier 1 tech support.

The Babysitter said...

Mlevin: Of course, I didn't say everyone should be in Kollel, I'm not advocating it either. I'm just saying give them a break!

But really I don't know how many Jewish people are building computers, I think it's people in India.

See the thing is, us and them see things differently. We see it as important to contribute to soceity and everything. But they have different assumptions. They think their purpose in life comes first, so if they have to learn then they are allowed to take because it is to benefit their learning. They don't see it as important to not take from the government, or to contribute to society. I disagree in that I don't think people should steal from the govt and try to play tricks on them thinking that they are so great and worthy of it all. But they still have that mentality and they don't see it as wrong.

Right, so I don't think GED's are ideal. There's also another way to get a diploma. There's something called American school, where they learn from a book, take tests and mail them in, and then they get their diploma through that. I know people who did that.

True, I believe an education is important. After all it does say that a parent has to give a child away to earn money, by teaching them a trade or something.

All I'm saying is, you can have your own view and believe the way you do, and yet you don't have to bash other people. They have reasons for doing what they do, you may not see it the same way as they do.

I have been always told how bad kollel is and everything, I've heard bashings of it for years, that its gone into my head enough that I wouldn't dare think of marrying a kollel guy. But at the same time because I heard it so much I get annoyed at hearing it, and don't want to hear it anymore, kinda thing.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- the world runs on money.

YOu can't ignroe it, and you cannot not obsess about it. Its your key to survival. You either obsess that you don't haev enough or you obsess about what to do with it when you have more than enough.

We're not Christain, we dont consider it holy to take on a vow of poverty. We like materialism, we just have to spiritualize it.

sporadicintelligence said...

Few things:

First, I worked in a boys Yeshiva for two years. And while the teachers were excellent, and in comparison to other Yeshiva's this English department was bar none, there is an underlying war going on between the Rebbi's and English teachers. The Rebbi's are winning.

They do seemingly innocuous things that really give over an attitude. For example a collegeue of mine taught the word omit, and wrote in on the board. It was on the board the next day, and when the Rebbi saw it he added a v in front, so it read vomit, and commented, "that's English"

2- If your son if the next gadol hador, fine, let him not go to English. Except you won't know whether he'll be gadol hadaor until he's in his 40's. So all boys should be learnining English

3- I'm using this situation to my advantage. The English department is so weak in most Yeshivas and there are a lot of concerned parents. So when I most probably end up in Lakewood, I'll start and English class for boys after school. (I'd do it now here in Brooklyn, but most parents aren't too keen on unmmarried girls)

sam the organizing man said...

mike youre right why would someone want to skip secular studies i for one never wanted toskip secular studies it was always my favorite part of the day(except for davening ofcourse)

B S A said...

i think think high school drop outs are a bunch of low-lifes and i would never take one for a shidduch

Mikeinmidwood said...

Frumskeptic

LOL

Babysitter

No its not out of laziness that they drop out its because of the rabbeim like Sporadic said. Many kids are told to stop taking english and learn the rest of the time.

Dont start saying all rebbeim are bad I had rebbeim that said forget english its narishkeit and had some that said you need to have secular education it will help you in life.

Mlevin

You are right in all ways but I wouldnt put it that harsh.

Sporadic

yes there is a war and the rebbeim are winning

Sam

Thanks (for agreeing)

S A B

You wouldnt, So many others will.

Lion of Zion said...

BABYSITTER:

"But the school offers it! So their doing their part."

they offer it to satisfy government requirements and parents' expectations (many of whom are themselves more educated than their kids will ever be, but that is their fault for sending them to schools that didn't match their own השקפות). it many schools it is not at all done wholeheartedly and the talmidim know very well that the school and rebbeim consider this a בדיעבד, at best.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: True, but... I won't get all into it now, perhaps I will write a post about my view of money, sometime.

SporadicIntelligence: Yea, I've heard that about the Rabbi's having like a war with the English teacchers, but I thought they were making it up. So perhaps the boys schools are really messed up. See Frumskeptic, at least the girls school's have a secular education, whatever it may be.

But there are some school's that are frum, not MO, and yet still encourage secular education, like chofetz chaim.

But you still have to understand, you can't really change the way things are, unless you can change their mentality on how they view this stuff. Until they realize the importance of secular education they won't be willing to accept it.

BSA: I would agree, but then again these aren't real drop outs, their only dropping out of part of school. Then again, all these great smart billionaires were high school drop outs, although I agree its not the norm.

Lion Of Zion: You may be right, I can see that, that's true.

Ok, so now that we've come to the decision that there's a lack of secular education in the boys school's, we have to figure out if it's truly a problem. Everyone here would agree its a bad thing, that its a problem. But the administration, obviously don't see it that way, so nothing will change till they see it as a problem.

mlevin said...

"Then again, all these great smart billionaires were high school drop outs, although I agree its not the norm. "

Please name one. I know plenty of Billionares who are college drop outs, but that's a lot different. High school provides a base for ones education, without that base they cannot accomplish anything, college... well it's a totally different story. That's why in this country high school is free, but college one has to pay for.

The Babysitter said...

Mlevin: I never paid attention to if it was High School drop outs or College drop outs, but perhaps you are right.

frumskeptic said...

Babysitter-
"But the administration, obviously don't see it that way, so nothing will change till they see it as a problem."

It will change quicker if we stop giving tzedakah to the yeshivos and to the families. Then they'll run out of money quicker, and maybe the administrations will realize craeting a society full of leeches can easily backfire

Mikeinmidwood said...

FrumSkeptic

Great plan.

frumskeptic said...

mike- I read the idea on another blog, and my parents completely adapted it.

They ask the telemarketers now "Do you give to kollel families?" and if they say yes, my parents don't give!

The Babysitter said...

Frum Skeptic: I don't like the sound of that plan. That's like purposefully destroying something that is dangling by a thread to prove it can't stand.

The Jews themselves are a small number and we always survived. If someone would say the Jews are just too small a number it just doesn't make sense for them to live, so they want to kill all the Jews for that, it doesn't make sense.

I know your not talking about something so extreme. But still, Just because it doesn't make sense for Kollel to be an option doesn't mean you have to get rid of it by not supporting it.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- the way the kolel system is today, needs to be stopped. This is the only way to get them to see that they are digging their own graves by not getting educations.

Its very simple. And its not like they'll end up starving.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: But the kollel system isn't bad in its own right, its a good cause, just might not be practical. No reason to end Torah learning if it can exist.

Having an education is not necessary for survival. I mean it may be crucial for some. But its not a must for others.

Just like living in a foreign country without knowing their language is possible. It may be hard to get around with people not understanding you, but it is possible.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- in the times of the torah, the "full time" learning was between yissachoar and zevulin, where ONE brother worked and ONE did not. It was arranged taht way. It wasn't a system of leeches where they EXPECT to be supported.

We're supposedly in a parnassa crisis. Well, I've got news for you. i don't feel bad ONE bit about the fact that frummies don't have money.

When someone digs their own grave, I like to stand idly by and laugh. And thats what I'm doing. reading the Yated every shabbos and laughing. I'm betting on what it is that gets them to stop with this kolel crisis (now THATS a crisis) and how long it takes.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: funny you bring up the yessuchur zevulan comment, cause I always used that to defend working.

Your right they shouldn't be expected to be supported. So maybe the answer is to improve the kollel system and not to kill it. They can make it that people can only be in kollel if A- they are really learning B- Not using it as a lazy way out C- have a partnership with someone willing to support them. Although I do think its ok for a kollel to be considered a tzedaka, and then the tzedaka money can also go to support them. SO long as the people are authentic learners then I would see it as a great thing. Although I don't think its the ideal thing for a person to do. It's only for those that can, and not everyone has to, and not everyone has to live with someone who will be learning in kollel.

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- No problem supporting a guy that learns if he actually learns, but thats IDEAL. But the system will not reform until we stop supprting it.

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: ok so you plan on making a revolution, putting a stop to it so that it will reform.

Good Luck!

Those are big projects your taking on!

frumskeptic said...

not starting a revoltuion. waaaaaay to lazy for that.

Just standing up for what I beleive (or disbelieve). I don't think kolel is a worthy cause, so I don't give ma'aser to yeshivos.

If everyone did that, they'd have no choice but to shut down. I can write a blog post about it, but thats as much as my laziness will permit in "revolutionizing"

lol

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: lol ok.

(But...I still think you shouldn't on purpose not give them tzedaka. I mean I wouldn't go out of my way to support kollel, but at the same time I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure the tzedaka organization isn't affiliated with a kollel.)

frumskeptic said...

babysitter- I work hard for my money and the fact that I have to give 10% of it away makes me wanna atleast give away the 10% to a worthy cause.

Therefore, Don't want the money going to a cause I don't find worthy

The Babysitter said...

FrumSkeptic: well when you put it that way, ok, that makes sense. :-)

Mikeinmidwood said...

FrumSkeptic/Babysitter

1) you have way too much time on your hands.
2)There should be a fine line between all out no learning and only learning. there should be a balance somewhere and thats what we need.The only way to achieve the balance is to starve the funds.
3) Maaser is not yours dont think of it that way you only get to give it to whatever you want.

The Babysitter said...

MikeInMidwood: 1) lol, I don't have enough time!

2) agree with you upto the point of starving the funds

3) I forgot about that, your right.

frumskeptic said...

1) lol. yes i do. I get home at 5:15 and I have no HW anymore. SO i'm free :)


2)agree

3) Maaser money is not mine to spend, but its my responsibility to donate it, so it goes to a good cause. If you know you're donating money to something that will waste it, its in your hands. If you atleast TRY to give money to the right cause, you can atleast sleep peacefully.